Comments on: Power and Harmony Part 2: The Need for a Big Stick http://blog.psaonline.org/2008/08/19/power-and-harmony-part-2-the-need-for-a-big-stick/ Mon, 15 Mar 2010 18:11:09 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Devil's Advocate http://blog.psaonline.org/2008/08/19/power-and-harmony-part-2-the-need-for-a-big-stick/comment-page-1/#comment-1219682 Devil's Advocate Wed, 27 Aug 2008 17:03:27 +0000 http://blog.psaonline.org/?p=589#comment-1219682 Eva: I challenge you to name one of your arguments that wasn't made 100s of times over the last 200 years. Then I challenge you to name one of your arguments that wasn't proven to be total nonsense. At what point do we stop taking these argument seriously? Eva:

I challenge you to name one of your arguments that wasn’t made 100s of times over the last 200 years.

Then I challenge you to name one of your arguments that wasn’t proven to be total nonsense.

At what point do we stop taking these argument seriously?

]]> By: Eva Sta http://blog.psaonline.org/2008/08/19/power-and-harmony-part-2-the-need-for-a-big-stick/comment-page-1/#comment-1210951 Eva Sta Thu, 21 Aug 2008 06:07:42 +0000 http://blog.psaonline.org/?p=589#comment-1210951 Sheesh - Just when you seem to make a little sense, you go and say something absurd about overpopulation and blow all of your credibility. Population issues are not defined by how much "empty" (i.e. no humans standing on it) space on the planet there is. It's defined by carrying capacity vs 'standard of living' (which ~ 'standard of consumption'). Carrying capacity is unimpressed by the rule of law or private property rights. Ask yeast as it poisons itself by reproducing itself to death in its own toxic wastes, also known as alcohol. We’ve already exceed global carrying capacity. We are now in “overshoot”. Global population is nearing 7 billion. Global carrying capacity is about 2 billion. (This assumes some level of social justice and a moderate, low by US standards, standard of living.) We will get to that 2 billion number the hard way (wars, famine, disease, and their accompanying losses of environmental quality, freedom, and social justice) OR the less hard way (immediately and drastically reducing our population voluntarily). It’s too late for any “us” vs “them” arguments or any belief that national boundaries will do much to help anyone. This is a global issue with local and nation-state consequences. Immigration for example, is a consequence of overpopulation, not a cause of it. One of the key factors in this scenario is also our sense of time. This is a slow motion crash that requires immediate action, a bit like trying to steer a supertanker by putting in consistent input over a multi year time frame, and that input is stop making babies. (And it was oil that allowed us to get this far out on a limb, and peak oil has already happened.) For more on this I suggest http://www.paulchefurka.ca One of his best at that site is The Elephant In The Room, which does a good job of linking population with peak oil. The real question is: are humans smarter than yeast? So far, the answer appears to be "no". Sheesh – Just when you seem to make a little sense, you go and say something absurd about overpopulation and blow all of your credibility. Population issues are not defined by how much “empty” (i.e. no humans standing on it) space on the planet there is. It’s defined by carrying capacity vs ’standard of living’ (which ~ ’standard of consumption’).
Carrying capacity is unimpressed by the rule of law or private property rights. Ask yeast as it poisons itself by reproducing itself to death in its own toxic wastes, also known as alcohol.

We’ve already exceed global carrying capacity. We are now in “overshoot”. Global population is nearing 7 billion. Global carrying capacity is about 2 billion. (This assumes some level of social justice and a moderate, low by US standards, standard of living.)

We will get to that 2 billion number the hard way (wars, famine, disease, and their accompanying losses of environmental quality, freedom, and social justice) OR the less hard way (immediately and drastically reducing our population voluntarily). It’s too late for any “us” vs “them” arguments or any belief that national boundaries will do much to help anyone. This is a global issue with local and nation-state consequences. Immigration for example, is a consequence of overpopulation, not a cause of it.

One of the key factors in this scenario is also our sense of time. This is a slow motion crash that requires immediate action, a bit like trying to steer a supertanker by putting in consistent input over a multi year time frame, and that input is stop making babies. (And it was oil that allowed us to get this far out on a limb, and peak oil has already happened.) For more on this I suggest http://www.paulchefurka.ca One of his best at that site is The Elephant In The Room, which does a good job of linking population with peak oil.

The real question is: are humans smarter than yeast? So far, the answer appears to be “no”.

]]> By: Dale Hendricks http://blog.psaonline.org/2008/08/19/power-and-harmony-part-2-the-need-for-a-big-stick/comment-page-1/#comment-1209629 Dale Hendricks Wed, 20 Aug 2008 13:01:29 +0000 http://blog.psaonline.org/?p=589#comment-1209629 To the comment above - there are sheep, sheepdogs and wolves in the world. Sheepdogs exist, many volunteer for the job, to protect the sheep (who most often are quite oblivious of the fact that they should be grateful for the protection) and to counter the wolves. What don't secular progressive liberals in the US understand about this? Great article. Thanks. I forwarded to my wife who is serving in Basra since 01 JAN 08. She would agree wholeheartedly with the premise of this article, which is quite solid. To the comment above – there are sheep, sheepdogs and wolves in the world. Sheepdogs exist, many volunteer for the job, to protect the sheep (who most often are quite oblivious of the fact that they should be grateful for the protection) and to counter the wolves. What don’t secular progressive liberals in the US understand about this? Great article. Thanks. I forwarded to my wife who is serving in Basra since 01 JAN 08. She would agree wholeheartedly with the premise of this article, which is quite solid.

]]> By: Walterc http://blog.psaonline.org/2008/08/19/power-and-harmony-part-2-the-need-for-a-big-stick/comment-page-1/#comment-1208338 Walterc Tue, 19 Aug 2008 21:11:15 +0000 http://blog.psaonline.org/?p=589#comment-1208338 I saw a bumper sticker this morning that sums this up quite well. It said <b>"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. . . .Liberty is a well armed Lamb contesting the vote".</b> I saw a bumper sticker this morning that sums this up quite well.

It said “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. . . .Liberty is a well armed Lamb contesting the vote”.

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