Comments on: Re: Prosecuting Genocide http://blog.psaonline.org/2007/07/23/re-prosecuting-genocide/ Wed, 08 Feb 2012 08:45:45 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Vin Katilius-Boydstun http://blog.psaonline.org/2007/07/23/re-prosecuting-genocide/comment-page-1/#comment-218040 Vin Katilius-Boydstun Wed, 25 Jul 2007 19:05:42 +0000 http://blog.psaonline.org/2007/07/23/re-prosecuting-genocide/#comment-218040 Dear Mr. Rojansky, I tried your Stanford e-mail address, but it didn't work, so I'll use this for a personal communication. I appreciate the openness and reasonableness of your answers to me--you sound like a reasonable guy. As you probably guessed, my main concern in responding to your blog involves what seems to me some unfair judgments about Lithuania that go back at least as far as Ryan's book, and that were less widely circulated but nevertheless very damaging in Holocaust writings that began to emerge right after the end of WWII. I married into this (hence the hyphenated name), and it has become very important to me. I have read and written about Lithuania, learned the language, visited there, been adopted by my wife's relatives, etc. Right now, I'm just started on a project that I hope will draw attention to the prolonged (1944-mid 50's)armed resistance to the Russian occupation of Lithuania. Nothing is likely to come of that for several months, but if things seem to be working out, I hope you won't mind if I let you know about it sometime in the future. In the meantime, I will read some of what you've written, and perhaps continue a conversation with you when it seems appropriate and if you're interested. I'm a professor of English at the University of St. Francis in Joliet, IL--I live in Chicago--mkatilius@stfrancis.edu. Viso geriauso (all the best), Vin Katilius-Boydstun Dear Mr. Rojansky,
I tried your Stanford e-mail address, but it didn’t work, so I’ll use this for a personal communication. I appreciate the openness and reasonableness of your answers to me–you sound like a reasonable guy. As you probably guessed, my main concern in responding to your blog involves what seems to me some unfair judgments about Lithuania that go back at least as far as Ryan’s book, and that were less widely circulated but nevertheless very damaging in Holocaust writings that began to emerge right after the
end of WWII. I married into this (hence the hyphenated name), and it has become very important to me. I have read and written about Lithuania, learned the language, visited there, been adopted by my wife’s relatives, etc. Right now, I’m just started on a project that I hope will draw attention to the prolonged (1944-mid 50′s)armed resistance to the Russian occupation of Lithuania. Nothing is likely to come of that for several months, but if things seem to be working out, I hope you won’t mind if I let you know about it sometime in the future. In the meantime, I will read some of what you’ve written, and perhaps continue a conversation with you when it seems appropriate and if you’re interested. I’m a professor of English at the University of St. Francis in Joliet, IL–I live in Chicago–mkatilius@stfrancis.edu.
Viso geriauso (all the best),
Vin Katilius-Boydstun

]]> By: Matthew Rojansky http://blog.psaonline.org/2007/07/23/re-prosecuting-genocide/comment-page-1/#comment-216057 Matthew Rojansky Tue, 24 Jul 2007 20:42:32 +0000 http://blog.psaonline.org/2007/07/23/re-prosecuting-genocide/#comment-216057 It's certainly a fair point that many in Eastern Europe resisted both Soviet and Nazi occupation, and sought only to protect or restore their national sovereignty during WWII (and even after). There was, for instance, a little-known but fascinating period of outright civil war in Western Ukraine during the 1950's, which was only marginally linked to the fallout from Nazi recruitment of Ukrainian, Belorussian and Russian units during the war itself. But, in answer to your point: Understanding is essential indeed. I am especially disappointed at the most recent absence of understanding between Russia and Estonia over the communist legacy viz WWII (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6273117.stm). There is nothing worse for friendly international relations than minimizing the historic suffering or wartime sacrifice of another group--and I think in the above case both parties are guilty of exactly that. My point in this blog has been that simply painting returned WWII war criminals (whose crimes were documented in US courts as part of deportation proceedings) as "good" because they were allied with those who fought the Soviets is the worst kind of oversimplification. The enemy of my enemy is not always my friend. That is especially true in what you rightly deem a very complex place and time. It’s certainly a fair point that many in Eastern Europe resisted both Soviet and Nazi occupation, and sought only to protect or restore their national sovereignty during WWII (and even after). There was, for instance, a little-known but fascinating period of outright civil war in Western Ukraine during the 1950′s, which was only marginally linked to the fallout from Nazi recruitment of Ukrainian, Belorussian and Russian units during the war itself.

But, in answer to your point: Understanding is essential indeed. I am especially disappointed at the most recent absence of understanding between Russia and Estonia over the communist legacy viz WWII (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6273117.stm). There is nothing worse for friendly international relations than minimizing the historic suffering or wartime sacrifice of another group–and I think in the above case both parties are guilty of exactly that. My point in this blog has been that simply painting returned WWII war criminals (whose crimes were documented in US courts as part of deportation proceedings) as “good” because they were allied with those who fought the Soviets is the worst kind of oversimplification. The enemy of my enemy is not always my friend. That is especially true in what you rightly deem a very complex place and time.

]]> By: Vin Katilius-Boydstun http://blog.psaonline.org/2007/07/23/re-prosecuting-genocide/comment-page-1/#comment-215825 Vin Katilius-Boydstun Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:51:21 +0000 http://blog.psaonline.org/2007/07/23/re-prosecuting-genocide/#comment-215825 Okay. But the emphasis on Eastern European failings still seems unfair. I think, for instance, your article much too easily dismisses the realities of Russian oppression--indeed genocide in some areas, not least in "Kaliningrad"-- in Latvia and Lithuania as of course in Estonia, presumably Croatia, and elsewhere. If there were comparable concern in the U.S. and elsewhere about Russian atrocities, the political will to prosecute collaborators in German atrocities would almost certainly be stronger in Eastern Europe. The situation in Eastern Europe during and after WWII was much more complicated and difficult than your writing implies, especially in regard to "resistance to Communism." I'm sure you know about the Katyn Forest massacre--there were many instances of similar massacres, albeit on a smaller scale, including torture, in Lithuania, not to mention the mass deportations to Siberia. There was also resistance to the German occupiers, including a refusal to form an SS unit, and many Lithuanians hid Jewish children. Probably you've heard this before, but maybe the time has come for each side of this question to stop accusing the other and make some attempt to understand. Okay. But the emphasis on Eastern European failings still seems unfair. I think, for instance, your article much too easily dismisses the realities of Russian oppression–indeed genocide in some areas, not least in “Kaliningrad”– in Latvia and Lithuania as of course in Estonia, presumably Croatia, and elsewhere. If there were comparable concern in the U.S. and elsewhere about Russian atrocities, the political will to prosecute collaborators in German atrocities would almost certainly be stronger in Eastern Europe. The situation in Eastern Europe during and after WWII was much more complicated and difficult than your writing implies, especially in regard to “resistance to Communism.” I’m sure you know about the Katyn Forest massacre–there were many instances of similar massacres, albeit on a smaller scale, including torture, in Lithuania, not to mention the mass deportations to Siberia. There was also resistance to the German occupiers, including a refusal to form an SS unit, and many Lithuanians hid Jewish children. Probably you’ve heard this before, but maybe the time has come for each side of this question to stop accusing the other and make some attempt to understand.

]]> By: Matthew Rojansky http://blog.psaonline.org/2007/07/23/re-prosecuting-genocide/comment-page-1/#comment-215522 Matthew Rojansky Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:37:07 +0000 http://blog.psaonline.org/2007/07/23/re-prosecuting-genocide/#comment-215522 Try clicking on the second link in the posting above. It will take you to an article I wrote a few years back that will provide all the evidence you need. The record is far from vague. However, I think it only fair to observe that while western countries lacked territorial jurisdiction over Nazi crimes, they did often have physical custody of the perpetrators, and failed in most cases to do anything for decades between Nuremberg and the 1980's, during which time the fugitives (and much of the world) naturally assumed their crimes had been forgotten. And the West, unlike the Soviet bloc, did not have the excuse of a concerted government PR campaign to suppress the then still sensitive ethnic dimensions of WWII. Try clicking on the second link in the posting above. It will take you to an article I wrote a few years back that will provide all the evidence you need. The record is far from vague.
However, I think it only fair to observe that while western countries lacked territorial jurisdiction over Nazi crimes, they did often have physical custody of the perpetrators, and failed in most cases to do anything for decades between Nuremberg and the 1980′s, during which time the fugitives (and much of the world) naturally assumed their crimes had been forgotten. And the West, unlike the Soviet bloc, did not have the excuse of a concerted government PR campaign to suppress the then still sensitive ethnic dimensions of WWII.

]]> By: Vin Katilius-Boydstun http://blog.psaonline.org/2007/07/23/re-prosecuting-genocide/comment-page-1/#comment-214592 Vin Katilius-Boydstun Tue, 24 Jul 2007 01:57:02 +0000 http://blog.psaonline.org/2007/07/23/re-prosecuting-genocide/#comment-214592 I suppose you have some evidence to support your offensive assertion that "former communist states" have a "pretty lousy record of dealing out justice" to war criminals. But then your assertions are so vague that they couldn't be supported with evidence anyway. I suppose you have some evidence to support your offensive assertion that “former communist states” have a “pretty lousy record of dealing out justice” to war criminals. But then your assertions are so vague that they couldn’t be supported with evidence anyway.

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