Comments on: The Worst Thing to Happen to America? http://blog.psaonline.org/2007/06/12/the-worst-thing-to-happen-to-america/ Mon, 15 Mar 2010 18:11:09 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Jim Suits http://blog.psaonline.org/2007/06/12/the-worst-thing-to-happen-to-america/comment-page-1/#comment-143746 Jim Suits Sat, 16 Jun 2007 17:57:16 +0000 http://blog.psaonline.org/2007/06/12/the-worst-thing-to-happen-to-america/#comment-143746 There is, however, an important national security <i>benefit</i> in purchasing oil (etc.) from outwardly-hostile foreign regimes. Despite their rhetoric, most anti-American governments are not stupid -- first, they are under no illusions that they can seriously stem US influence in the world; second, and more importantly, they are well aware that our money (from purchasing that energy) is keeping them afloat, thus keeping them in check. Hugo Chavez, to cite an example, is becoming increasingly autocratic, and has never hesitated to level creative criticism at anything American (sulphur odour on the podium, anyone?). Nevertheless, the <a href="https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ve.html#Econ" rel="nofollow">World Factbook</a> estimates that oil accounts for 90% of Venezuela's exports, over half of which go to the United States. The extrapolation, given some other statistics on that page, is that something of a quarter of their national budget is entirely dependent on us. When it comes to foreign regimes, we've always placed a heavy emphasis on stability over other considerations, for reasons that currently are quite apparent in Iraq. Were we to cease oil imports from countries with disagreeable government types, we'd severely weaken those governments, causing new insurgencies (Islamist terrorists in Sa'udi Arabia, narcoterrorists in Venezuela, the mafia in Russia, etc.) that would only further cripple the world's energy network. Ultimately, as long as our energy is generated by setting fire to things, I agree with Zoi -- independence is not possible. The distribution of these resources, coupled with our increasingly insatiable demand for them, means that unless and until a new mechanism for energy creation is developed, we will always be dependent on foreign energy sources. There is, however, an important national security benefit in purchasing oil (etc.) from outwardly-hostile foreign regimes. Despite their rhetoric, most anti-American governments are not stupid — first, they are under no illusions that they can seriously stem US influence in the world; second, and more importantly, they are well aware that our money (from purchasing that energy) is keeping them afloat, thus keeping them in check.

Hugo Chavez, to cite an example, is becoming increasingly autocratic, and has never hesitated to level creative criticism at anything American (sulphur odour on the podium, anyone?). Nevertheless, the World Factbook estimates that oil accounts for 90% of Venezuela’s exports, over half of which go to the United States. The extrapolation, given some other statistics on that page, is that something of a quarter of their national budget is entirely dependent on us.

When it comes to foreign regimes, we’ve always placed a heavy emphasis on stability over other considerations, for reasons that currently are quite apparent in Iraq. Were we to cease oil imports from countries with disagreeable government types, we’d severely weaken those governments, causing new insurgencies (Islamist terrorists in Sa’udi Arabia, narcoterrorists in Venezuela, the mafia in Russia, etc.) that would only further cripple the world’s energy network.

Ultimately, as long as our energy is generated by setting fire to things, I agree with Zoi — independence is not possible. The distribution of these resources, coupled with our increasingly insatiable demand for them, means that unless and until a new mechanism for energy creation is developed, we will always be dependent on foreign energy sources.

]]> By: Daniel W. Drezner http://blog.psaonline.org/2007/06/12/the-worst-thing-to-happen-to-america/comment-page-1/#comment-141401 Daniel W. Drezner Fri, 15 Jun 2007 13:03:50 +0000 http://blog.psaonline.org/2007/06/12/the-worst-thing-to-happen-to-america/#comment-141401 <strong>This is my brain when it's cranky...</strong> Matthew Rojansky has a post at Across the Aisle on energy independence that caused me to bang my head against the wall in sheer frustration for a few moments. Rojansky reacts to a DC panel on energy, the environment and...... This is my brain when it’s cranky…

Matthew Rojansky has a post at Across the Aisle on energy independence that caused me to bang my head against the wall in sheer frustration for a few moments. Rojansky reacts to a DC panel on energy, the environment and……

]]> By: Across the Aisle » Bipartisan Consensus (?) Gone Wrong on Trade http://blog.psaonline.org/2007/06/12/the-worst-thing-to-happen-to-america/comment-page-1/#comment-141359 Across the Aisle » Bipartisan Consensus (?) Gone Wrong on Trade Fri, 15 Jun 2007 11:51:49 +0000 http://blog.psaonline.org/2007/06/12/the-worst-thing-to-happen-to-america/#comment-141359 [...] This week, there’s been a sudden flurry of questioning the economic value of free trade — on many fronts.  Hillary Clinton came out against the Korea-U.S. Free Trade Agreement.  Senators renewed their bipartisan effort to bludgeon China about the value of the Yuan — this time by calling China a “currency manipulator” to trigger sanctions rather than by proposing a tariff to directly “compensate” for the manipulation.  And one of my colleagues on this blog, Matthew Rojansky, was shocked to discover that some people think that aiming for energy independence (that is, avoiding all trade in energy) is not a smart goal. [...] [...] This week, there’s been a sudden flurry of questioning the economic value of free trade — on many fronts.  Hillary Clinton came out against the Korea-U.S. Free Trade Agreement.  Senators renewed their bipartisan effort to bludgeon China about the value of the Yuan — this time by calling China a “currency manipulator” to trigger sanctions rather than by proposing a tariff to directly “compensate” for the manipulation.  And one of my colleagues on this blog, Matthew Rojansky, was shocked to discover that some people think that aiming for energy independence (that is, avoiding all trade in energy) is not a smart goal. [...]

]]> By: Jeffrey Timshel http://blog.psaonline.org/2007/06/12/the-worst-thing-to-happen-to-america/comment-page-1/#comment-138545 Jeffrey Timshel Wed, 13 Jun 2007 16:21:01 +0000 http://blog.psaonline.org/2007/06/12/the-worst-thing-to-happen-to-america/#comment-138545 So, is that a reason to end our economic relationship with them? Or does it suggest we should worker harder to mend our relationships? Stopping to purchase oil from them will do very little because the of the growing prosperity of China and India. Oil producing nations will still amass large petro-dollars, regardless of us becoming " energy independent." Focusing on more efficient and alternative energy is certainly important for purposes of global warming, but it seems irrelevant to eliminating anti-Americanism. Such negative views of the US are not going to end by severing our economic relationship with these nations. If anything, it will push them into an even more anti-American posture. So, is that a reason to end our economic relationship with them? Or does it suggest we should worker harder to mend our relationships? Stopping to purchase oil from them will do very little because the of the growing prosperity of China and India. Oil producing nations will still amass large petro-dollars, regardless of us becoming ” energy independent.” Focusing on more efficient and alternative energy is certainly important for purposes of global warming, but it seems irrelevant to eliminating anti-Americanism. Such negative views of the US are not going to end by severing our economic relationship with these nations. If anything, it will push them into an even more anti-American posture.

]]> By: Matthew Rojansky http://blog.psaonline.org/2007/06/12/the-worst-thing-to-happen-to-america/comment-page-1/#comment-138434 Matthew Rojansky Wed, 13 Jun 2007 15:18:46 +0000 http://blog.psaonline.org/2007/06/12/the-worst-thing-to-happen-to-america/#comment-138434 Jeffrey, the upshot of your criticism is that we need to keep buying oil from anti-American governments because if we don't, they'll become poorer and resent us even more. While indeed I have also been a student of economics, I am most certainly a student of history and international relations. Last I checked, the countries that have benefited most from western oil dollars are those whose anti-Americanism has only grown over time. Jeffrey, the upshot of your criticism is that we need to keep buying oil from anti-American governments because if we don’t, they’ll become poorer and resent us even more. While indeed I have also been a student of economics, I am most certainly a student of history and international relations. Last I checked, the countries that have benefited most from western oil dollars are those whose anti-Americanism has only grown over time.

]]> By: Jeffrey Timshel http://blog.psaonline.org/2007/06/12/the-worst-thing-to-happen-to-america/comment-page-1/#comment-138420 Jeffrey Timshel Wed, 13 Jun 2007 15:01:18 +0000 http://blog.psaonline.org/2007/06/12/the-worst-thing-to-happen-to-america/#comment-138420 Matthew - I must say that you were probably not a student of economics. If you had been you would understand that economic independence is not only highly difficult to achieve in the modern global system, but also undesirable. I was also at this panel discussion and it was obvious to me that the panelists were being realistic in their advice. You say that energy independence is a point of compromise, but among who? Between nationalists and militarists on the far right and protections and isolationists on the far left? Uniting the extremes is not what this nation needs. You must also acknowledge that interdependence is a two-way street (like most are). We are dependent on rogue regimes for their oil, but they are dependent on us for our money. Break this connection and certain unintended results will result - like more poverty in these nations, which must be seen as a potential source of resentment and future turmoil. Matthew –

I must say that you were probably not a student of economics. If you had been you would understand that economic independence is not only highly difficult to achieve in the modern global system, but also undesirable. I was also at this panel discussion and it was obvious to me that the panelists were being realistic in their advice. You say that energy independence is a point of compromise, but among who? Between nationalists and militarists on the far right and protections and isolationists on the far left? Uniting the extremes is not what this nation needs. You must also acknowledge that interdependence is a two-way street (like most are). We are dependent on rogue regimes for their oil, but they are dependent on us for our money. Break this connection and certain unintended results will result – like more poverty in these nations, which must be seen as a potential source of resentment and future turmoil.

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